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Medium Dawn Felagund of the Fountain

Sh*t Vegans Say

The (Cyber) Bag of Weasels

bread and puppet




"About as much fun as a bag of weasels"...when I first saw this Irish adage, it made me think of the life of a writer: sometimes perilous, sometimes painful, certainly interesting. My paper journal has always been called "The Bag of Weasels." This is the Bag of Weasels' online home.

Sh*t Vegans Say

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doughboy
I actually found this on the LiveJournal front page. I guess that means I can't be all snobby about how the LiveJournal front page is shallow and useless anymore.

Well ... on second thought, I'm not sure this doesn't still count as shallow ...








That was so me when I first became a vegetarian! (To be fair, I was only 12 at the time ...) That was me on the phone with people like the USDA Meat Safety Hotline, stumping with my animal rights message. That was me handing out leaflets at my elementary school's Holiday Shopping Fair. That was me squinting at ingredients lists and pondering whether the lecithin was vegetable-based if it didn't specify.

Some shit vegetarians/vegans say that I would add ...

"Do you know what happened to that ham sandwich while it was still a pig?"

"Meat is murder!"

"Meat is just rotting corpses!"

"Humans are meant to be vegetarians!"

*unscientific but impressive-sounding garbledegook*

"It's easy being vegetarian!"

"Meat is murder!"

"So what if I still eat honey? You still feed your cats meat-based cat food!"

"I so can't tell this difference between this vegetarian bacon and real bacon!"
[Yes you can. You so can.]

"Can I get that made without the meat?"
[I still say that one a lot, actually. >.<]

"Raising animals for food is oppressive. Like slavery!"

"Humans are the only animals that drink milk after infancy."

"Ewww. You still drink animal secretions??"

"Meat is murder!"

"It's perfectly safe to feed your dog and cat a vegetarian diet! Really!!"

"If people were meant to eat meat, then why can't we eat raw chicken??"

"If everyone in the U.S. stopped eating meat, we could feed all the hungry people in the world with the leftover grain!"

"You won't miss eating cheese!"
[Hell yeah I will.]

"Tofu is really good! Really!"

"Meat is murder!!!1!"



This post was originally posted on Dreamwidth and, using my Felagundish Elf magic, crossposted to LiveJournal. You can comment here or there!

http://dawn-felagund.dreamwidth.org/290254.html
  • Sigh... you know, live and let live. I mean, I would probably be a vegetarian if I had to slaughter my own animals.... that being said, humans are omnivores who are able to be herbivores. Dogs and cats aren't.

    I so like tofu if it is cooked properly. :D

    • I do too--my husband makes an amazing fried fish replacement out of tofu! :)

      I would probably be a vegetarian if I had to slaughter my own animals....

      I often say that I will go back to eating meat (raised under certain conditions) if I can eat an animal that I kill myself. Being a bleeding-heart blood phobic who still regrets the one spider I chose to kill in the house, I don't foresee this happening anytime soon. ;) But if I'd been raised in, say, my grandparents' era, where killing one's own food was far more commonplace, I might have a different outlook.
      • We try to get meat from animals that are free range and raised humanely...

        I didn't know you were blood phobic. *Pets you* Don't go into medicine. *Smooches*

        I just think people should be free to choose but not wave their banners around and put down other people for their choices. Amen.

  • (no subject) - aranellaurelote
    • Since I'm no longer attached to the morals of vegetarianism, people ask me why I'm still vegetarian. In all honesty, it's just a comfortable choice by now. I've been vegetarian for most of my life; with a few exceptions (mostly seafood--I'm a Balmore girl through and through! :), I have no desire to eat meat. I often say I would allow myself to go back only if I could kill and eat my own meat ... but I honestly don't see that happening anytime soon, seeing as I'm badly blood phobic. ;)
  • OMM lolololol.

    It's hilarious to imagine that those "arguments" could make people stop eating meat. But I feel bad for their cats and dogs...
    • They usually trot out some dubious statistics too. And some real ones ... if you're talking about industrialized agriculture, that is. When it comes to free-range, truly organic agriculture, those arguments tend to fall through, and then they come to the purely emotional arguments.

      Or they just go for the gory slaughterhouse pictures. Like any group of fundamentalists, they can be very persuasive because they ignore fact in lieu of playing to sentiment and emotion.
      • I love dubious statistics. They make for nice rants. What I don't understand is why you need to persuade other people of your beliefs - but then we are back, as you say, to the fundamentalists, and they can't be reasoned with.

        I dread to think what they would feel about how animals are treated here in Africa... I have seen a guy transporting two goats tied up in a basket on the back of his bike, and about 10 chickens hanging by their feet from the handlebars.
        • What I don't understand is why you need to persuade other people of your beliefs

          That's always been my biggest difficulty with the whole movement as well. I realized early on that this just wasn't for me: I wasn't comfortable doing it, and it didn't seem to me that it made a positive difference. I think it's just that they believe so fervently that they are on the side of Absolute Good, fighting the good fight against Absolute Evil. Honestly, the best comparison I can draw between what I've seen of the vegementalist movement is that they resemble the anti-abortion movement over here: the whole notion of "innocence" being destroyed by an evil entity, the vilification of those who disagree, the dubious statistics and "science," the belief that violence originates in the act of killing an animal/fetus, the complete lack of touch with reality, including the belief that making something "illegal" will somehow stop it from happening and make the world into a happy utopia where everyone dances hand-in-hand while farting rainbows and singing "Tra-la-la-lalley, here down in the valley!" ;)

          I dread to think what they would feel about how animals are treated here in Africa...

          That would be an interesting conversation to have ...
  • Hahaha. My best friend from 13- about 16 was exactly like that. With the difference of her being vegetarian, not vegan, so I never quite got to the milk and honey arguments. I remember vividly searching for cosmetics free from suffering animals and complaining to the school staff because apparently the animals we had to dissect in bio classes were killed for that very purpose. I just kind of tagged along out of loyalty/curiosity. In the process, I became mostly vegetarian simply by associating with her- not entirely, because with my amount of allergies that would mean I could hardly, if ever, eat any cookies etc. I have to say a large part of it was entirely selfish - I generally hate the taste of meat.

    Then she found out as a part of my taking in wounded birds I have sometimes killed young birds with internal bleeding etc (falling from a roof without having functioning wings grants them zero chance at healing but, for some reason, often quite some time dying. I prefer swiftly breaking their necks instead. It's always sad, but much less painful.). I will do the same to animals toyed with too much by a cat. We've not spoken much since. Sometimes she still sends videos of animals on farms and the kind of information you mentioned above. It's a bit of a misunderstanding. I don't have a problem with bleeding humans either - wounds and blood etc in general don't bother me at all. It's why I am able to sometimes assist the local vet with surgeries and am able to inject tavegil into my own leg. I find the environmental arguments by far more compelling, but for some reason those are hardly ever used by those who go for the "but it's a dead animal ewww!" route...
    • I also had such a friend, but the funny thing is that she became veg because of me. But she took it to a whole new level. After dabbling in the level of activism groups like PETA encourage their supporters to engage in, I decided that it wasn't for me and that I would lead by example: If people wanted to know about why I made the choices I did, I'd gladly answer their questions, but I'd never bring it up to them first. My friend took the opposite tack and was very assertive-bordering-on-aggressive about it, with the result that she alienated a lot of people and gave the whole notion of protecting the welfare of animals a bad name in our school. It was really an intriguing case study of the negative repercussions of being too in-your-face about a controversial point of view; far more people were willing to give me a fair hearing because I refused to force my views on anyone and never approached conversations with the intention of convincing or converting but, rather, sharing and hearing different points of view.

      The whole experience soured me on the approach taken by groups like PETA, which in turn opened me to questioning their credibility, which has slowly led to where I am now: a bad vegetarian who sees the questions as bringing answers that are never black and white.

      Then she found out as a part of my taking in wounded birds I have sometimes killed young birds with internal bleeding etc

      So she ... advocated letting them die slowly and painfully on their own? I can't quite understand that. I'll euthanize animals that need it, although it's thankfully something that rarely comes up. (Okay, usually I get my husband to do it. ;)

      I find the environmental arguments by far more compelling

      They are, but most people who make these arguments also overlook that they are based on an industrialized agricultural system, which has only been the norm since the advent of petrochemical fertilizers and the so-called Green Revolution ... so much less than a century! :) Based on my research, raising livestock is an essential part of a healthy, sustainable farm ecosystem ... which is probably why the argument so often comes back to the moral and the sentimental. :)
      • Oh I am aware of that. In general, I think it's more important to how something is produced than what it is exactly. Thanks to my allergies, I've always had to pay a lot of attention to what I put into my mouth and where it comes from. I definitely think eating soy of questionable origins is just as bad for the environment as supporting, say, draining the ocean of various species of fish. I don't think there's anything wrom with eating meat as such, though unless you have a lot of money to spend, actually eating animals kept in a humane way is not really an option for many people. Which makes vegetarianism the more available at least somewhat conscientious option. Not that there aren't a lot of problems with that, but...I guess my personal reason for being mostly vegetarian is that there have been several studies about the possible relationships between severe allergies, processed food, pesticides etc etc. Though not definitive (there seem to be multiple reasons as to why eating gets progressively dangerous to some people and not others as they age), there are some quite convincing resulting statistics! It is in my best interests to eat mostly locally produced organic food. I don't like meat, and if my parents buy meat it is of the gross over processed sort full of things that aren't even meat, lol.

        Yeah, I don't understand either. I guess she's just one of those people who really don't feel comfortable about the idea of killing at all and kind of use vegetarianism as an excuse for that? Nature isn't all kitties and ducklings but it's more pleasant to ignore that, I suppose. I don't like it either, but I've never felt snapping necks in cases of emergency to be a moral failing...But I love animals, birds in particular! I guess some people just don't want to get it.
        What I do get is the whole feeling disgusted with the entire world and human biology and your need to eat and poop and politics and sex sometimes, generally how gross, cruel and repetitive things can seem. Sometimes I think fanatic veggies are just people trying to escape that, somehow. Based on what some people I talked to said. There's something ascetic about it. But that might just be me.



        Edited at 2012-01-16 07:32 pm (UTC)
  • I remember when I was vegan, but that was many, many years ago. I have to agree - bacon cannot be falsified by any other method and tofu...well, it usually is cooked very badly. On the other hand, awareness of what exactly goes into our mouths is good, so perhaps my having been vegan has led to a greater awareness of what I choose to eat.

    It's hard being one of the beings at the top of the food chain :-) Socially responsible eating....it's not practiced in nature :-)

    - Erulisse (one L)
    • perhaps my having been vegan has led to a greater awareness of what I choose to eat.

      I dunno, that kind of comes across like the annoying kind of religious people who say things like "But how can you have a moral compass if you don't believe in God???" :P It's perfectly possible to be aware of what one eats without going via veganism (or vegetarianism, or fructism, or any other -ism)!
      I know you probably know that - I just thought I'd point it out.

      Socially responsible eating....it's not practiced in nature
      It sort of is, in a balanced ecosystem - just not consciously, of course! ;)


      Edited at 2012-01-16 12:59 pm (UTC)
      • Well, I mean it more in a fashion of knowing that I need certain nutrients, that I adore veggies, and that I tend to limit my beef intake, focusing on lighter meats and fish instead. I never preached my vegan sensibilities to anyone, and stopped being vegan when I got tired of cooking two totally different meals after I moved in with the man who became my DH.

        Nature is very much a prey/predator environment. Humanity's problem is that it invented technological means to move up the food chain so now, we are our own worst enemy, and natural creatures hold little danger for most of us.

        I think that nature is going on the offensive now, and refining the small creatures that can actually do great damage to humanity - germs, bacteria, etc., as well as remaining focused on the large events that will cause mankind to realize their weaknesses, those of earthquakes, windstorms, etc.

        My goodness - so much faldarole to come out of a post on vegan preferences. I'll crawl back under my rock now. Have a marvelous Monday!

        - Erulisse (one L)
        • Yeah, I figured you did not mean anything preachy - it just came across weird to me. That's probably because I'm weird. I apologise if you got the impression that I wanted to attack you personally - that was absolutely not my intention. Foot in mouth, here. >_>

          Have a great Monday, too!
      • It's perfectly possible to be aware of what one eats without going via veganism (or vegetarianism, or fructism, or any other -ism)!

        My experience, actually, is that vegetarians/vegans tend to be just as woefully unaware of the impact of their food choices as omnivores are. They come from a completely untenable moral position--that humans should never do anything to harm animals--that is ignorant of how the world actually works, i.e., we're all in this together and will depend on each other for things like food, and that's okay. It has to be. It's the way of nature and can't be simply willed away.
        • Remembering what you said about some PETA-activist (I think?) proudly eating her ready-made, microwaveable vegan meal made with lots of ingredients imported from Far Far Away (and probably grown on the ground of ex-rainforests) and full of preservatives... yup.
          Besides, there are more ways of harming animals than "just" eating them. Vegetarianism and Veganism are perfectly fine as such, but it's just naïve to think that everyone woul be better off if only we evil humans stopped "enslaving" animals.

          (I'm particularly amused by the "bee slavery" argument. Do these people actually know how beekeeping, or for that matter bee biology in general, works?)
          • No, I suspect that biology--especially ecology--is a largely foreign concept to many of them. ;)

            Besides, there are more ways of harming animals than "just" eating them.

            The ironic thing is that vegementalists like to accuse omnivores of remaining deliberately blind to the suffering of animals used for food: Out of sight, out of mind, they say. Yet a lot of suffering wrought by the typical vegetarian diet is also out of sight and out of mind ... and most vegementalists respond to invitations to consider this by pressing their hands over their ears and singing LALALALALA! at the top of their lungs.
            • Oh, yeah, the good old "You wouldn't eat meat if you had to kill your own animals, would you?!?!" argument!

              I remember coming into our neighbours' kitchen to pick up their kids for playing when I was, oh, eight or so. The father of the family had just slaughtered a turkey (I come from a rural area), so there was a lot of blood and, well, dead turkey.
              IT WAS A DELICIOUS TURKEY.
              Granted, we kids never liked those turkeys. Aggressive asshole birds. But they also killed and ate their own geese, rabbits and sheep, and when we were invited for a barbecue or a birthday dinner, chances were high that we'd known the meat on the table personally.
              As far as I know, their kids turned out perfectly normal. They also still eat meat.
              And I don't feel particularly traumatised, either...
              News flash, vegementalists: People have been killing the animals they eat for centuries. Millennia, actually...
              LALALALALA!

              But to be fair, it's not just vegementalists - unfortunately, many fundamentalist eco-warriors seem to pick their own reality and ignore everything that doesn't fit. Such as the uncomfortable fact that growing corn and rape (... the plant! Crap, that's a bad homonym.) to make "eco-fuel" means that edible plants are wasted, and have to be replaced somehow, either by more agriculture (=less natural habitats) in Europe or by importing corn from Africa, because surely them Africans don't need their soil and water to feed their own people...
              Argh argh argh.
    • perhaps my having been vegan has led to a greater awareness of what I choose to eat.

      Do you think this is the case generally, with vegetarians/vegans? I certainly don't debate that it can't be the case that someone becomes more aware through vegetarianism--I think this is the case for me as well, although I say that with a lot of caveats--but my pet theory, from interacting with other vegetarians, is that vegetarianism/veganism actually tends to arise from a disconnect with the natural world and lack of awareness of our food system and how choices impact the environment beyond the simple and sentimental ideas put forth by "vegementalists," i.e. those fundamentalists who believe that going vegan will end everything negative in the world.

      For example, it always boggles my mind the number of vegetarians/vegans who make their primary diet highly processed foods that consist primarily of corn and soy--ingredients grown in the massive monocultures that are wrecking our ecosystem--or imported from far-flung places before being subjected to energy-intensive processing, transportation, and storage. Yet these people will label me a slaveholder because I keep backyard chickens. The number of critters that die each year because of conventional agriculture--to say nothing of those that die in the pursuit of fossil fuels needed to sustain said conventional agriculture--is staggering compared to the one chicken that would perish, were I to decide to have one of my birds for supper tonight. (Our chickens are actually kept for eggs, but I'm being hypothetical! :) But this seems lost on them; there is such a disconnect from what our food system entails or how food webs work in nature.

      The notion that vegetarians/vegans are "enlightened" eaters is one that I generally find patently false to the point of absurdity. But, like I said above, I got my start there too; the difference, I think, was being willing to go beyond the sound bites that sustain the vegementalist argument (provoked by the idiocy of the methods of PETA--thank you PETA! ;) Of course, that's an unpopular place to be: Omnivores tend to feel threatened because I'm still a vegetarian (and always seem to suspect I'm out to "convert" them) and vegetarians tend to loathe me because I in no way advocate vegetarianism or veganism as a choice that's "enlightened," much less good for health, the environment, or animals.

      Socially responsible eating....it's not practiced in nature :-)

      It's certainly not! :)
      • I do not consider myself an "enlightened" eater. But when I was vegan, I was quite conscious of what I was eating so that I got the nutrients and proteins, etc that I needed. I didn't do tofu, so did a lot of legumes instead.

        I have never regretted leaving the vegan lifestyle behind me, though. I'm not sure if I could kill and gut an animal for my food, but if I needed to do so, I'm pretty darned sure I'd be trying to. :-)

        - Erulisse (one L)
  • I consider myself a "lazy vegetarian". I hardly ever cook something with meat, but I don't rule it out. I actually eat a lot of fish. If pressed, I could turn into a "real" vegetarian without missing much. But vegan? No way...
    • Lazy vegetarian, meet bad vegetarian. ;)

      I couldn't be a vegan either. I love cheese too much and other dairy products (but mostly cheese ... ;) Also, when I occasionally eat vegan for multiple meals in a row, I become so hungry that I scare myself. It's clearly not something that's good for me.
      • I have no problem leaving out meat. It would really get problematic for me if I had to leave out eggs or milk - that cooking becomes a real chore. (And I admit, I find vegan a bit too extreme.)
  • I sometimes say I'm vegetarian. More often I just say I don't eat meat (there's a slight distinction to me, both practical and social).

    To illustrate one of the many reasons I dislike veggie proselytizing--I had a class last summer where we watched a very old documentary from the 40s or 50s about a tribal community somewhere in the Sahara. They showed the hunters of the tribe wounding a giraffe with a poisoned dart, and then trailing it for well over a day before they finally met the wounded animal and took it out with their spears. The other non-carnivore in class had a field day about how wrong this was of the hunters to do, and this person made such a scene that my reasoned explanation about how I thought it was not a question of ethics in such a subsistence circumstances went unheard by prof and classmates. =P

    "Humans are meant to be vegetarians!"
    Ughh. I always wonder if thiis crowd ever looked at herbivore dentition v. human dentition.


    "It's perfectly safe to feed your dog and cat a vegetarian diet! Really!!"
    I find this one very ironic in how cruel it is to the animals in question.
  • An interesting discussion. Personally - my beef (pun intended) is with virtually ALL extremists. Their rants are akin to having someones personal choice of religion, politics or menu choices shoved down my throat. AS one individual stated "live and let live". That does not condone cruelty or mistreatment but it does encourage being open minded and looking for the why of things and seeing how it fits in your personal scheme of things.
    I love animals, I have a lot of cats. They get a diet suitable for cats and they get to go to the vet and when they can no longer live a life of quality and are dying, I humanely help them out of their pain. I cannot see an animal suffer needlessly. I carry that attitude in dealing with humans as well. Ask me how 'easy' it was to pull the plug on my own Mother! Actually, don't... but it was for the best and what she had always said she wanted if the situation happened.
    So, choose your own path, do it wisely and with common sense. The end result will be a happier, healthier you and the bible thumping, soap box shouting, extremists can go find another source to bother.
    Lifestyle is a personal choice - it shouldn't be a political statement.
  • I have been to a slaughterhouse on horse day and seen the animals from start (alive in their pens) to almost-finish (not quite steaks, but close), and still eat meat. Furthermore, other than not wanting my horse in the food chain for purely-emotional reasons, I would GLADLY have it put down in such a way. Honestly, what I saw was one of the humanest deaths possible for an animal that size.
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